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[Music]

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I get really annoyed when people use up

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my question time to promote their thing

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so I'm gonna use my talk time to promote

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my thing so quick quick announcement the

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NASA money for us early career people

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came in last night at 10:00 p.m. so so

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so they actually delivered them the

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money before the meeting ended if if

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this describes you if you're in NASA if

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you're a US graduate student or postdoc

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and that does include NYU ad there's

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some funding available to support travel

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here we're gonna cover the raised fee

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waivers first because he did that out of

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his personal research funds which great

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the important thing is don't send your

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receipts in to your university for

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reimbursement because you can't get

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reimbursed for the same thing twice and

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I will follow up in an e-mail early next

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week okay and then also there was a

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bunch of stuff this morning about

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needing more measurements in the lab of

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various things we just hired two new

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faculty cari Donaldson Hannah was just

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hired this year Chris Bennett was hired

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a couple of years ago and they do

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astrochemistry spectroscopy surface

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processes in the lab they'll also do

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some things that are not straight up on

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the surface so if you want to produce

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the measured talk to them and our

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website is planets that UCF that edu and

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finally if you didn't sign up for dinner

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either

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you talk to me okay all right so so I

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put up this slide in like when I when I

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brought this topic up on Monday so the

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the SETI community has this scale that

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they developed in Rio in 2005 updated in

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2018 and they they call it an excitement

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level which is maybe not an appropriate

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thing for their topic and they're there

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they their formulas are equals two times

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Delta and Q is the consequence of the

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signal and Delta is the credibility of

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the signal and we kind of in our

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discussions this week we kind of have

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started that much of their scale we

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pretty much throughout the rest of it

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but but maybe that's well if we can

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we'll continue to talk about that so the

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other thing and we didn't talk about

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this in our breakout meeting the other

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day but we did I'd have talked about it

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a lot with individuals people seem to

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like this kind of language for the

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description of new observations so if

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you've got you know if you if you see

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something and you you've you're you know

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you're you're announcing a discovery you

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call it a speculative signal and once it

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goes through the process of having you

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know increased verification and

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demonstrating that it's not instrumental

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and so forth you can start calling it

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things like you know a verified signal a

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candidate's signal in an actual

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discovery those conservative words

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prevent us from overhyping and really

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what it does is it prevents the media

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from EE overhyping you're not very

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overhyped it's press release which

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they'd like to do or at least some of

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them like to do a process keeps the

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public engaged in what we do longer so

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if they if you say you know I've got a

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speculative signal on the next step is

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for somebody else to go look at it and

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and and verify it then people know that

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there's maybe they're maybe gonna hear

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more about this and then finally that

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discovery is something that the field

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does when science works and we have

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consensus about a result okay so these

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are the questions I put up should we

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adopt these terms was the first question

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I'm curious how people feel about that

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so let's do a show of hands if you like

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that idea meaning like it well enough

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that you're gonna do it in your own

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press release call your own press

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release speculate on the first go let me

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see what that how many people feel good

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with that many people don't feel so good

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with that okay how many people aren't

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sure all right now how many people

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didn't raise their hand no anyway okay

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so I see not consensus but but certainly

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a lot of interest in in terms like that

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so maybe we can may find some terms that

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aren't quite so derogatory but maybe

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also don't call something so

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on the first go all right as far as I

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know at this point there is not yet a

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scale for this in the works there was

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mention of a paper by Dave Catlin which

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is a nice description of how to do

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Bayesian analysis on bio signatures so

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that's part of what we're interested in

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but it doesn't talk about things like

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meeting multiple observations or you

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know whether the signal might be

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confused for something else we I guess

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we're making a scale in our discussion

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we kind of decided the real to the

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details of Rio to were a little bit too

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complicated for us and I think that

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might be possible for them because

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they've thought a lot about specifically

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the kinds of signals they expect to see

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and it's a pretty much narrower range of

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I think it's a narrow range of ideas

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than then the kinds of things that we

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are talking about for for non

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intelligent life so we didn't we didn't

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like the complexity we stuck to

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something a little bit more conceptually

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simple so we developed a draft scale

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which I'll show you shortly and bring it

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back here for discussion I don't know if

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we're ready to vote on something but at

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least we'll ask if you know people think

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it's a reasonable idea to proceed with

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the next step is to develop a paper and

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a website and the website is important

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because the papers gonna talk to our

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colleagues the websites gonna talk to

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the press and people who are reading

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stuff and wondering what this scale is

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and so forth so that website is probably

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as important for the success of this

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thing as a paper if we just publish a

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paper it will it will dive into some

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journal and never come out if you're

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interested in in joining us and you

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haven't yet please send me an email

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I'm JH at physics that UCF I didi you

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and of course I put that last which

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means I better wait 11 seconds for

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people to note it maybe I don't have to

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way to fall 11 seconds okay alright so

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this is what we kind of came up with as

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a ballpark thing and that the key item

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for us was a great idea by Peter

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Wheatley which is that if you don't have

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someone's periodically people will

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forget that you exist

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I think that's the problem with Rio it

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was so hard it's so hard to get a one in

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Rio that I don't know that it's ever

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happened and so as a consequence Rio in

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2005 there were you know maybe some

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discussions at some point and people

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talked about it and then the people can

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attend it to stop using it so on the

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other hand the Torino scale for

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asteroids they've got four or five

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asteroids a year there were a one in

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there scale so people keep using and

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hearing about their scale so we decided

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a one would be a place that life could

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exist like it like you don't

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automatically rule it out like a

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terrestrial planet and have habitable

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zone and I know we have to go argue

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about what the habitable zone is but but

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that's all sort of part of the process

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and a2 is maybe a place where life

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should exist like an ocean so maybe

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you've got a specular reflection or

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something like that you have evidence

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for an ocean that would be pushing it

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toward a two three or four would be an

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individual bio signature and you would

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go three or four depending on how

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convincing that kind of bio signature

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was in the community

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five to seven would be multiple

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independent bio signatures and this

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really damn good buy a signature would

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be eight to ten that would be something

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like a high-resolution spectrum of a

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molecule that can only be produced by

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life and I don't mean like phosphine I

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mean like chlorophyll and then we had a

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question right what if you found CFCs

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okay so if you if you can convince us

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that CFCs cannot be produced naturally

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then CFCs might be something in here but

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they would certainly be something in

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there and so and it's with CFCs maybe

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it's something in here and then you call

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up your Shetty friends since they go

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look at that planet and then maybe

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they'll come back with some additional

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line of lines of evidence okay we did

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not talk quantitatively about signal

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quality we've pretty much spent all of

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our time on the state on the the the

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signal interpretation scale but we did

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have some general agreement on some

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items that we want to see in a highly

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rated signal like multiple observations

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multiple analyses by different teams

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multiple instruments reliable or

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respectable methods or instruments so if

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you're talking about you know a 10 ppm

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result with Spitzer no but you know

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perhaps with other telescopes standing

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the test of time so there's time for

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people to come up with

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alternative ways of interpreting the

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data alternative ways of analyzing the

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data and so perhaps we'll end up with a

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0 to 1 scale that multiplies the other

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scale because everybody likes 1 to 10 so

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this is the Torino scale and you'll

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notice that it's got these sort of

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diagonal zones so as you as your your

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level of concern increases the level of

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probability that you care about drops

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here's the what I'm sort of a quick

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graphic I made out of out of ours and so

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your your 9 and 10 are up here that's 0

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here's 1 and 2 so if you're if this is

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the the scale I gave you before for the

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significance of the evidence and this is

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the quality of the evidence this is that

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that last slide where you maybe go from

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0 to 1 so if you've got a really firm

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detection of a terrestrial planet your

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zero 1 and then if you've got a really

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firm detection of a single bio signature

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it's going to be in this range you've

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got kind of a weak detection of a single

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biosignature you're probably still at 2

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and and you know maybe the curvature

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exact placement disease curves get

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shipped around but that's the general

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idea so next steps quantify that signal

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quality scale and and how we combine the

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two we obviously we need to involve some

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more bio signature experts than we

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currently have which is approximately 1

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i it's been suggested that we include a

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philosopher some press officers and some

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press people just to see that this could

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actually be be used evaluating examples

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independently coming up with idea with

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with you know if I had a such and such

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quality observation of this particular

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bias hit room how would you rate it and

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give that to a bunch of people and see

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that you can actually use this rating

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system consistently would certainly be

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something we have to do they did it for

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Rio Rio did a bunch of statistical tests

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and so we may may need to do that and

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then finally coming up with a website

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examples a bunch of popular level

273
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:55,100
explanations and I everything has to be

274
00:10:59,920 --> 00:10:57,920
an app doesn't it okay we publish it and

275
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then that's actually not the end because

276
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then we'll actually have the catalog

277
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every claim on the site we're on this

278
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website we would have to actually you

279
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know

280
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not just assume that people are going to

281
00:11:13,319 --> 00:11:12,009
use it but go after people who didn't

282
00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:13,329
use it and say hey could you rate on the

283
00:11:17,369 --> 00:11:15,790
scale encourage media people to ask that

284
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question right you get called up as an

285
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expert and sales and and one of the

286
00:11:23,099 --> 00:11:21,249
questions you're gonna get is hey these

287
00:11:25,999 --> 00:11:23,109
guys you know made this bio signature

288
00:11:29,309 --> 00:11:26,009
what what scale rating do you give it um

289
00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:29,319
so and then I threw in here because

290
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:33,100
these are going to go up on a on the on

291
00:11:36,059 --> 00:11:34,569
the exit climbs website I've just thrown

292
00:11:38,759 --> 00:11:36,069
in here that the papers that we've been

293
00:11:40,859 --> 00:11:38,769
talking about so far so for the original

294
00:11:43,799 --> 00:11:40,869
Torino scale this is the REO reference

295
00:11:46,829 --> 00:11:43,809
or the couple of REO references there's

296
00:11:48,599 --> 00:11:46,839
an in situ scale that we found the

297
00:11:51,929 --> 00:11:48,609
ladder of life detection which includes

298
00:11:53,219 --> 00:11:51,939
a bunch of NASA executive people and and

299
00:11:54,569 --> 00:11:53,229
some people that probably actually did

300
00:11:56,279 --> 00:11:54,579
the work I don't actually don't know

301
00:11:59,939 --> 00:11:56,289
this paper so maybe the nasa execs also

302
00:12:01,739 --> 00:11:59,949
did some work and but this is for in

303
00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:01,749
situ measurements of life in the solar

304
00:12:07,169 --> 00:12:04,660
system and then finally the capping

305
00:12:09,210 --> 00:12:07,179
paper and they're actually a pretty good

306
00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:09,220
number of wikipedia and other popular

307
00:12:14,549 --> 00:12:11,169
articles and sites and so forth which I

308
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:14,559
did in catalog so I will go back to

309
00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:30,400
[Applause]

310
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:33,770
tymberlee yeah in addition to bio

311
00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:35,490
signatures on the scale I wonder if we

312
00:12:39,620 --> 00:12:37,410
should include pre bio signatures that

313
00:12:42,590 --> 00:12:39,630
is signatures that prebiotic chemistry

314
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:42,600
is actually happening things like HCN

315
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:45,330
detections and other prebiotic molecules

316
00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:48,450
hdn detections in a in a habitable zone

317
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:52,230
planet would so get you up to maybe like

318
00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:55,680
a 1.5 or yeah I mean so this an ocean

319
00:12:59,510 --> 00:12:58,050
wouldn't be the only way to get here and

320
00:13:01,700 --> 00:12:59,520
neither would a terrestrial planet be

321
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:01,710
the only way to get there this is sort

322
00:13:05,690 --> 00:13:03,570
of the the weight of the evidence is

323
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:05,700
like you've you've got a rock that might

324
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:07,050
have the right temperature and then

325
00:13:11,990 --> 00:13:09,930
you've got some some things that we

326
00:13:14,390 --> 00:13:12,000
think should be there and and maybe

327
00:13:15,650 --> 00:13:14,400
maybe something like a prebiotic

328
00:13:17,330 --> 00:13:15,660
chemistry would be in here although I

329
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:17,340
think anything that can be explained

330
00:13:23,450 --> 00:13:19,530
abiotic Leawood sort of not convince

331
00:13:25,130 --> 00:13:23,460
anybody so well there's HCN supposedly

332
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:25,140
and some of that Jupiter's maybe that's

333
00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:27,360
too hot I don't know but but but yeah

334
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:29,220
they I wanted to be really clear that

335
00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:31,410
this is not these are absolutely not the

336
00:13:36,140 --> 00:13:32,760
only ways to get there right these are

337
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:36,150
these are just examples of ways of

338
00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:37,170
moving on the scale

339
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:40,860
I came by University of Washington I

340
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:42,300
just wanted to bring up a few

341
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:44,250
bookkeeping things first of all I love

342
00:13:46,910 --> 00:13:45,690
this idea I love where this is headed

343
00:13:50,630 --> 00:13:46,920
and I've talked to you about this a

344
00:13:52,490 --> 00:13:50,640
little bit but I would implore us to

345
00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:52,500
open this up to the community even more

346
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:53,670
and make sure that more of the community

347
00:13:56,690 --> 00:13:55,440
is hearing about it I love EXO going

348
00:13:58,610 --> 00:13:56,700
presence flow and I get to meet all of

349
00:13:59,930 --> 00:13:58,620
you but there's various other of us here

350
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:59,940
so maybe I don't know if we can talk

351
00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:01,440
about this more like Sibelius or

352
00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:03,360
something I like make this more public

353
00:14:06,140 --> 00:14:04,710
in the meantime that would be really

354
00:14:08,990 --> 00:14:06,150
great absolutely and that would ensure

355
00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:09,000
that the community would use it also

356
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:11,640
bringing in a philosopher I heard some

357
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:14,730
people scoff and I like the idea of

358
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:17,760
bringing in a science historian there's

359
00:14:20,570 --> 00:14:19,410
a lot of insight that those kind of

360
00:14:22,940 --> 00:14:20,580
people with those backgrounds can give

361
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:22,950
us and said like how to not screw this

362
00:14:25,579 --> 00:14:25,050
up and totally miss communicate with the

363
00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:25,589
public

364
00:14:32,180 --> 00:14:27,990
in ways that have been done before and

365
00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:32,190
lastly just to think about the balance

366
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:33,450
of the science impact and you kind of

367
00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:34,890
touched on this not getting too bogged

368
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:37,420
down with the methods because we may not

369
00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:40,450
anticipate realistically how we detect

370
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,550
these bio signatures and just kind of

371
00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:44,320
broad scale I did I wanted to bring up

372
00:14:56,850 --> 00:14:49,500
with you on thank you yes like fully yes

373
00:14:59,640 --> 00:14:56,860
I also think it's a great idea I have a

374
00:15:02,310 --> 00:14:59,650
question regarding the point two and

375
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:02,320
three well okay actually a point three

376
00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:07,210
and four so the second one that says a

377
00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:09,670
place life should exist example an ocean

378
00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:12,550
it could be I think an amazing thing to

379
00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:14,590
discover and say that there is an ocean

380
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:17,260
in such a planet and maybe and the way

381
00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:18,850
that the field is going now it may be

382
00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:21,400
easier to detect by a signature in the

383
00:15:25,950 --> 00:15:24,280
atmosphere so it kind of beast doesn't

384
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:25,960
reflect the relevance of such a

385
00:15:30,090 --> 00:15:28,390
discovery and I mean may all we can

386
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:30,100
discuss about I don't think you need an

387
00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:33,730
ocean to get to three I mean if you look

388
00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:36,400
at point two you have place life should

389
00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:38,950
exist in it's written an ocean and then

390
00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:40,990
three and four if the detection of a

391
00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:42,700
single by a signature I mean I kind of

392
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:44,710
think that the relevance of a discovery

393
00:15:48,570 --> 00:15:47,050
like you might give it a two and then

394
00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:48,580
the people will think this is not

395
00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:49,900
relevant but actually would be an

396
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:53,230
amazing thing to have you know what I

397
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:55,450
mean we can be late I'll be happy to

398
00:16:04,140 --> 00:15:58,720
discuss I think the reason we made this

399
00:16:05,730 --> 00:16:04,150
one before that one is that well I don't

400
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:05,740
I don't know if you have an ocean do you

401
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:09,370
automatically have life no no maybe I

402
00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:13,930
don't maybe maybe you know but these

403
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:15,880
things being called bio signatures to be

404
00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:17,920
comet being called that because that's

405
00:16:23,730 --> 00:16:20,550
supposed to be the only or the principal

406
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:23,740
place you can get that from so if you

407
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:26,650
this is less believable as an indicator

408
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:28,480
of life than that if you get this

409
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:30,370
without that great jump right the three

410
00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:35,290
or four if that's not convincing and

411
00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:36,940
then I don't understand your point okay

412
00:16:47,070 --> 00:16:45,150
regarding the catalog is there a plan

413
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:47,080
for like community verification of

414
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:48,210
submitted

415
00:16:51,630 --> 00:16:50,650
constable bio signatures you know

416
00:16:53,130 --> 00:16:51,640
sending out

417
00:16:54,930 --> 00:16:53,140
to a maybe book I've been getting

418
00:16:59,220 --> 00:16:54,940
everyone say yes I agreed it should be a

419
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:59,230
5 or the the way the other skills are

420
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:00,880
working is that everybody makes their

421
00:17:03,930 --> 00:17:02,410
own evaluation and the reason for that

422
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:03,940
is the press doesn't want to wait weeks

423
00:17:05,699 --> 00:17:05,290
for you to go and have your committee

424
00:17:09,150 --> 00:17:05,709
meeting

425
00:17:12,090 --> 00:17:09,160
so you met you say in your press release

426
00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:12,100
we think this is a three and they go and

427
00:17:15,210 --> 00:17:13,900
ask experts and the experts say yeah I

428
00:17:18,780 --> 00:17:15,220
agree this is the three their experts

429
00:17:20,910 --> 00:17:18,790
say no no this is only a one and if that

430
00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:20,920
even that disagreement if it is a

431
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:23,260
disagreement is indicative of you know

432
00:17:34,050 --> 00:17:26,050
the quality of your of your signal and

433
00:17:37,050 --> 00:17:34,060
your and your bio signature that's

434
00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:37,060
somebody here to make up this team two

435
00:17:42,450 --> 00:17:39,790
quick points firstly my understandings

436
00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:42,460
from the from the Rio scale is that like

437
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:44,950
you said they really get high numbers at

438
00:17:48,930 --> 00:17:47,290
all but that's not because they can't

439
00:17:51,570 --> 00:17:48,940
right now it's just because the criteria

440
00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:51,580
harsh whereas with this criteria some of

441
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:53,860
those are actually inaccessible to us

442
00:17:58,980 --> 00:17:57,310
for the near future so that's some

443
00:18:01,560 --> 00:17:58,990
that's going to naturally truncate it so

444
00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:01,570
but the other point is that for point

445
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:03,820
number one I mean one of the issues that

446
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:08,710
I tend to rage about when it comes to

447
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:10,090
the abalone because I work on the handle

448
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:12,930
zone a lot and when we use phrases like

449
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:16,930
earth-like and temperate planet then

450
00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:19,930
those there's a suggest you know there's

451
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:22,360
a claim there about the knowledge of the

452
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:24,640
surface conditions which we can't back

453
00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:28,390
out and so unless we include a

454
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:30,550
constraint on using those kind of

455
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:32,440
phrases you know point number one then

456
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:34,450
we're going to continue to have the kind

457
00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:37,570
of hyperbolic press releases that was

458
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:40,390
that's a very good point and I think so

459
00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:43,570
maybe what we need to do up here is get

460
00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:45,400
specific in the things that we're

461
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:49,180
actually already having and then as as

462
00:18:54,030 --> 00:18:52,000
time goes on you know we'll need to do

463
00:18:57,090 --> 00:18:54,040
that in these other categories and these

464
00:18:58,980 --> 00:18:57,100
sales tend to get revised as science

465
00:19:02,040 --> 00:18:58,990
progresses and so I think we can

466
00:19:03,660 --> 00:19:02,050
probably although I am I fear the

467
00:19:05,370 --> 00:19:03,670
argument but we can probably do

468
00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:05,380
something that's a little bit better

469
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:08,560
than what's just written here for item

470
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:10,690
one and possibly even for item two and

471
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:13,090
then I have no idea what we would do

472
00:19:16,590 --> 00:19:14,410
down here but I don't really care

473
00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:16,600
because if we can I doubt that in my

474
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:18,100
lifetime we will have a high-resolution

475
00:19:25,020 --> 00:19:21,760
spectrum of a molecule that that you

476
00:19:27,950 --> 00:19:25,030
know on a you know that's complex on on

477
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:27,960
any planet outside the solar system but

478
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:31,410
you know so that's the I I think I think

479
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:34,810
progressing our specificity as time as

480
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:37,120
time and technology reached the various

481
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:38,530
points is probably what we need to do

482
00:19:47,010 --> 00:19:43,930
there yeah this is just a follow-on from

483
00:19:48,510 --> 00:19:47,020
Stephens first point that you know as an

484
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:48,520
observer I look at this and I think you

485
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:49,990
know we're not gonna get past maybe at

486
00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:52,930
one point five at least five years maybe

487
00:19:57,420 --> 00:19:55,840
ten years yeah and if we so I wanted to

488
00:19:59,760 --> 00:19:57,430
hear in your sessions if you discussed

489
00:20:01,590 --> 00:19:59,770
the timing of when you would want people

490
00:20:02,610 --> 00:20:01,600
to actually start using this scale in

491
00:20:05,370 --> 00:20:02,620
the press do we want to do it

492
00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:05,380
immediately and report once for the next

493
00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:09,190
ten years I I think so I'm not afraid of

494
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:10,870
having low values for a long time

495
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:12,130
because everybody knows that the

496
00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:14,080
detection of life is a big deal and not

497
00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:17,380
necessarily happening this year and on

498
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:19,660
the flip side of it this is the kind of

499
00:20:24,150 --> 00:20:22,090
thing that might get taxpayers to say

500
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:24,160
you know I really would like to see a

501
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:26,110
five or six or a seven and they tell us

502
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:27,670
that if we build this telescope will get

503
00:20:31,260 --> 00:20:28,930
it and so let's do that

504
00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:31,270
and so it might be so the kind of thing